Winnipeg played a total of eight consecutive seasons in the East before moving to the newly created North Division in 1995 during the CFL's expansion to the United States. 18. Streveler’s Arizona Cardinals will face the New England Patriots on Sunday, and the status of usual starter Kyler Murray is still up in the air. Other returning players who were free agents going into the 2008 season, including star DE Tom Canada, OL's Dan Goodspeed, and Matt Sheridan, signed for less money from the Bombers than other teams were prepared to pay them, in hopes of a Grey Cup run in '08. He rebounded and in his final seven starts – including the two playoff games – threw for eight TDs against zero interceptions. A 43–12 drubbing of the eventual Western Division champion Saskatchewan Roughriders in the 1997 Labour Day Classic. Johnson was later declared the game MVP. He called the team the "Blue Bombers of Western football". All rights reserved. This would serve as the home for the Blue Bombers, as well as the U of M Bisons. Veteran Darian Durant had been added over the winter as a proven arm to come out of the bullpen, and former B.C. Former Cincinnati Bearcats standout Zach Collaros led the Winnipeg Blue Bombers past his former team, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, for a 33-12 Grey … Unlike most other professional teams in the four most popular North American team sports (but much more common in soccer, especially in Europe) the official legal name Winnipeg Football Club continues to see significant everyday use alongside its nickname, particularly in local media and especially when reporting on the club's business affairs. The team finished first in the Western Conference in 1972, the first time it had done so since 1962. Hamilton player Jack Craig let the opening kickoff bounce to the turf while a Winnipeg player promptly recovered the ball at the Hamilton 15-yard line. Three Winnipeg quarterbacks — Zach Collaros, Matt Nichols and Chris Streveler — are scheduled to hit the free agent market on February 11. Dinwiddie has also made a successful transition to coaching, currently in his fourth year as the Calgary Stampeders’ quarterbacks coach. Last June Streveler became just the 12th straight-from-college quarterback to start Week 1 for a CFL team since 1959 and the first since Anthony Calvillo with the Las Vegas Posse in 1994. Zachary J. Collaros (born August 27, 1988) is an American professional Canadian football quarterback for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the Canadian Football League (CFL). The CFL returned to Ottawa in 2014 with the establishment of the Redblacks. However, the presumptive backup quarterback, Darian Durant, retired before the start of training camp. Kingsbury and Taylor were with the Blue Bombers when Kevin Glenn broke his arm in the 2007 East Final, which allowed both men to dress behind Ryan Dinwiddie in the Grey Cup. During his quarterbacking career he […] The Blue Bombers finished last place in their first season back in the West, with a 7–11 record. McGuire gets listed here by default, as the QB depth chart returns three from last year in Nichols, Streveler and Bennett. From that day forward, the team has been known as the "Winnipeg Blue Bombers". He left the club after the 1996 season, having spent 14 years with the team. But he also struggled at times after the knee injury with a bad stretch in late summer/early September that saw the club drop four straight. Ralph Dieter Brock (born February 12, 1951) is a former Canadian Football League and National Football League player and coach. This was the "Guaranteed Win day" that the club had been promoting all week, as well as the first win of the season, in week 11. During the 2006 Grey Cup, Khari Jones and Milt Stegall were voted and honoured as the best QB/WR combo in CFL history. Jacobs retired in 1954 to become a talent scout for the team. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers employed a one-two quarterback punch of Collaros and Chris Streveler to beat the Calgary Stampeders 35-14 in Sunday's West Division semifinal. After being named the acting CEO in August 2013 Wade Miller was announced as the CEO and President of the Club on November 12, 2013. The team struggled for a few more seasons under coaches Jim Spavital and Bud Riley before Ray Jauch was brought in as head coach before the 1978 season. It appears Arizona Cardinals head coach Kliff Kingsbury is adding a quarterback from one of his old stomping grounds. In 1961, the Bombers won 21–14 over the Hamilton Tiger-Cats in the first Grey Cup game to go into overtime. Winnipeg Stadium was built in the West End of the city near Polo Park, and the Blue Bombers began play there in 1953. The 1972 season also marks the last time the team has finished first in the West. On June 10, 1930, they amalgamated with all the other teams in the Manitoba Rugby Football Union to create the Winnipeg Winnipegs Rugby Football Club, adopting the colours green and white. The Winnipegs played their first game against St. John's Rugby Club on June 13, 1930, when St. John's won by a score of 7–3. Yeah, well, we all know how all that turned out…. Jim Spavital coached the team. The return of Mike Kelly opened a new Cal Murphy era, and the board hoped to bring back Murphy's success. Prior to Nichols, the last Bombers QB with a winning record was Khari Jones, who was 44-28-1 from 2000-04. The departure of Brendan Taman on January 13, 2009, was another sign that this era was coming to an end and a new one was beginning. There’s a chance former Winnipeg Blue Bombers quarterback Chris Streveler makes his first career NFL start this weekend. That’s a discussion that really won’t be rekindled until November. Then, just prior to the start of the 1987 season, the Montreal Alouettes folded. 1990 Winnipeg Blue Bombers Statistics 1990 Winnipeg Blue Bombers Results. The next year he bested that mark with 34. He was also the last college QB to start an opener for the Bombers since John Schneider way back in 1968. Williams, safety Tom Europe, running back/returner Eric Blount, and Milt Stegall. Paul LaPolice was introduced as the 28th head coach in Blue Bombers history on February 5, 2010. Of these appearances, Winnipeg won only twice, in 1939 over the Ottawa Rough Riders and again in their 1941 rematch. 2 in Streveler, to the athletic Bennett, to the prospect in McGuire. On December 7, 1935, the Bombers got their first shot at winning the 23rd Grey Cup. The first football team in Winnipeg was formed in 1879, and was called the Winnipeg Rugby Football Club. Midway through the 2004 season, Jones was traded to the Calgary Stampeders, with backup QB Kevin Glenn taking over the starting duties. On April 2, 2009, David Asper (a media mogul located out of Winnipeg associated with Canwest and Creswin Properties) struck a deal with all levels of governments to build a new 33,422-seat (expandable to 45,000) stadium at the University of Manitoba in southwest Winnipeg. Nick Bastaja. This project, once completed, would be the premiere sports training facility in Canada. … The following season, Winnipeg returned to the West Division following the establishment of the Ottawa Renegades. The two quarterbacks' play, behind the dominant performance of the defence saw the team win their 11th championship at the 107th Grey Cup, breaking a 28-year drought. He played every season in the league from 1990 to 2006, as a member of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers, BC Lions, … The game resumed the next morning with the Bombers winning 28–27. 6'1" 255. Glenn led the team to two mediocre seasons after the trade. Bud Grant joined the team in 1953 after a two-year stint with the Philadelphia Eagles, as one of numerous NFL players lured to Canada during the first part of the decade for then-better salaries. [12] The team advanced to the 99th Grey Cup after defeating Hamilton in the Eastern Final. The team compiled a postseason mark of 2-0. Jacobs was so well liked, the fans even referred to the new stadium as "The House that Jack Built". This was partly due to a 68–7 playoff thumping by the Edmonton Eskimos, and partly because the team had not had a winning record the previous two years, winning only seven games in 1995, and nine in 1996. Jim Van Pelt was the winning QB for the Bombers in 1958 and 1959. Despite his rookie mistakes, Dinwiddie showed promise going into the 2008 season. All in all, there is a solid mix at the Bombers QB position, from the veteran Nichols, to the exciting No. The Blue Bombers finished the season in 4th place in the West Division with a 5–13 record and missed the playoffs for the fourth year in a row, as well as the sixth time in seven seasons. I don't know why, but he beat out who most on this board consider the greatest. He beat out former Alliance of American Football pivot Kevin Anderson, who was released after rookie camp this week. In 2008, a plan was proposed to build a new stadium at the University of Manitoba, with both private and public funding. It was a rainy day at Hamilton Amateur Athletic Association Grounds, with 6,405 fans in attendance. With the offensive core of Stegall and Roberts still intact, Glenn led the Bombers back to respectability in 2006. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the Canadian Football League ended the 1970 season with a record of 2 wins and 14 losses, finishing fifth in the CFL's Western Conference. With the end of the CFL's American experiment a year later, and the re-establishment of the Alouettes, the Blue Bombers returned to the re-constituted West Division. © THE CANADIAN PRESS/Todd Korol Winnipeg Blue Bombers quarterback Chris Streveler pushes away Hamilton Tiger-Cats' Cariel Brooks during the second half of the 107th Grey Cup in … In 1983, Cal Murphy was hired to be the new head coach of the Blue Bombers. He took a $50,000 pay cut, and started the season 159 yards away from breaking Allen Pitts' all-time receiving yards record. The Blue Bombers reversed their standings from last place in the east in 2010 to finishing in first place in the East division with a 10–8 record. On July 20, 2006, trailing the Edmonton Eskimos on the road 22–19, and facing third and long on their own 10-yard line with 4 seconds left in the game, Milt Stegall caught a 100-yard TD pass from Kevin Glenn as time expired to win the game 25–22. Depatures: None. Nichols is now a member of the Toronto Argonauts after being passed over by … The season included many highlights, but none as exciting at what is simply known as "The Play". The Blue Bombers signed quarterback Bryan Bennettto compete with Streveler and Ross for backup behind Nichols. [20], On May 2, 2012, the Blue Bombers announced that because of constructions delays, the stadium would not be ready until September, thus forcing the team to play four or five home games at Canad Inns Stadium to start the season. CFL newcomers: Sean McGuire, Sawyer Buettner* (U Sports QB apprentice) Back-up quarterback Ryan Dinwiddie — in his first CFL start — did not fare well and threw one touchdown pass, fumbled once and threw three interceptions to Saskatchewan cornerback James Johnson. Durant bolted with a just-before-camp retirement; Nichols went down in a heap before the first regular season game, and Streveler emerged from a camp battle with Ross to be the opening-night starter and not only won a game during his time under centre, but provided a wrinkle to the offence that has left fans wanting more. He is best remembered as the quarterback for the CFL Winnipeg Blue Bombers where he led the league in passing for four years. Goodlow caught 100 passes for 1,494 yards and 14 touchdowns. Murphy went on to lead the team to a total of five Grey Cup appearances, winning, as a coach in 1984, and as a GM, in 1988 and 1990. Scouting –, Assistant General Manager / Director of Player Personnel –, Director of Football Operations – Matt Gulakow, Assistant Equipment Manager – Jared Cronk, Official statistics of the WIFU, CFC and CFL, 1950 to 2007, Winnipeg Blue Bomber Media Guides 2006 and 2007, This page was last edited on 13 April 2021, at 22:38. There was also an intriguing prospect on board in Chris Streveler, who was pegged to battle Ross for the third-string gig. Hometown player Harris became the first player ever to win the Grey Cup MVP and Grey Cup Most Valuable Canadian.[17]. He spent the first five years of his career with the Lions before signing with the Blue Bombers for the 2010 CFL season. In 1951, Jack Jacobs became the first professional football quarterback to throw for over 3,000 yards in a season with 3,248. Prior to the 2006 season, the Renegades suspended operations and Winnipeg once again returned to the East Division. The deal included refurbishing the existing Bison Stadium for practice and training, as well as upgrading, expanding, and building new sports and fitness facilities. The team was a powerhouse during this period, being one of the best teams in the league from 2001 until 2003. During the 2013 CFL season, he rejoined the Lions when the Blue … On June 1, 2018, Streveler playe… It was clear in those days that the East was much more powerful, outscoring their opponents 236–29 in these games. One of the picks was shown in the instant replay to have hit the ground before it was caught. In 1981, wide receiver Eugene Goodlow became the first CFL player to reach the century mark in receptions in a season. The Bombers traded for Zach Collaros right before the trade deadline, who joined his third team for the year. Ultimately, what Nichols and all these QBs are judged on are Grey Cup championships and what’s interesting about the club’s Top 10 career passers – including Don Jonas, Matt Dunigan, Jack Jacobs and Tom Burgess – is only Ploen, Clements and Burgess helped the Bombers win a title. In a dramatic win over the Roughriders at home in 1998, forgotten backup QB Troy Kopp led the second-half over-20-point comeback. On August 9, 2013, the Winnipeg Blue Bombers announced that CEO Garth Buchko stepped down and General Manager Joe Mack was fired.[13]. for Joe Smith on September 2, 2008. -- Three of the four Bomber quarterbacks honoured as the league's Most Outstanding Player -- Don Jonas (1972), Tom Clements (1984 and 1987) and Jones in 2001 -- were acquired by trades. Winnipeg scored quickly on a Bob Fritz pass to Bud Marquardt to get the early lead. So, since they could not trade Canada, they sent over Corey Mace and a first-round pick for Moreno. He played in the Bombers' final six games of the 1995 season, racking up 469 receiving yards. 2009 Canadian Football League Facts, Figures & Records, Canadian Football League Properties/Publications, Toronto, Ontario, Hamilton Amateur Athletic Association Grounds, Comparison of Canadian and American football, "Blue Bombers update logo and helmet design in advance of 2012 season", "Royal Blue, Gold and White: The New Adidas Uniforms are Revealed", "Winnipeg Blue Bombers Club Profile & History", "Labatt renews long-standings relationship with Blue Bombers", "Taman resigns player personal post with Blue Bombers", "Blue Bombers axe GM Joe Mack, CEO Buchko resigns", "Blue Bombers name Wade Miller president, CEO", "Mike O'Shea hired as Blue Bombers head coach", "Homegrown hero Andrew Harris helps Winnipeg end 29-year Grey Cup drought", "Official Site of the new Bomber Stadium", "First game in new stadium could be as early as Sept. 9: Bombers", "Bombers to play entire season at Canad Inns Stadium", First team from Western Canada to win the Grey Cup, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Winnipeg_Blue_Bombers&oldid=1017646397, All Wikipedia articles written in Canadian English, Official website different in Wikidata and Wikipedia, Wikipedia articles with MusicBrainz identifiers, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, Bombers, Blue and Gold, Big Blue, True Blue. 1, as he has guided the Bombers 30-14 record in his starts dating back to 2016. Blue Bombers lose starting QB Nichols for 6 games with upper-body injury Second-year quarterback Chris Streveler replaced Nichols in the Lions game and has started every game for the Bombers … That season, the Bombers became one of the first teams to have three receivers with at least 1,000 yards in a season: Goodlow with 1,494, Joe Poplawski with 1,271, and Rick House with 1,102. The fast, passing-dominated play of Bombers quarterback Jack Jacobs dramatically increased attendance at games and precipitated the need for a new, larger stadium. [5], The first football team in Winnipeg was formed in 1879, and was called the Winnipeg Rugby Football Club. The few notable highlights from that era include: The few memorable players on the team during that time included linebacker K.D. [11] The team success hinged on a league-leading defence dubbed Swaggerville, which led them to their first division title in 10 years. [18][19] On December 13, 2013, it was reported that Asper and Creswin Properties would no longer be included in the stadium project, which would continue with funding from the City of Winnipeg, Province of Manitoba, and Winnipeg Blue Bombers. Later, he coached the Saskatchewan Roughriders in 1999. As part of the deal, Creswin properties would take over ownership of the team in 2010. After Riley left, Darryl Rogers and Urban Bowman each led the team for a season until 1993, when Murphy took over head-coaching duties again. The project would have received on-going funding from a retail development that Asper planned to build on the former CanadInns stadium site. Neither Matt Nichols or Chris Streveler are Winnipeg Blue Bombers any more. Collaros formed a quarterback pairing with Chris Streveler. On June 10, 1930, they amalgamated with all the other teams in the Manitoba Rugby Football Union to create the Winnipeg Winnipegs Rugby Football Club, adopting the colours green and white. Ken Ploen was drafted by the San Francisco 49ers of the NFL, but decided to come to Canada and play for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. In the process, Nichols has moved into sixth place on the Bombers all-time passing yardage list at 13,041, behind only Dieter Brock (29,623), Khari Jones (20,175), Kevin Glenn (18,116), Ken Ploen (16,470) and Tom Clements (14,917). In 1932, the Winnipegs and St. John's merged into one team and adopted the colours blue and gold.[6]. The Blue Bombers were founded in 1930 as the Winnipeg Football Club, which has always been the organization's legal name. With Streveler exploring NFL options and likely to sign a contract south of the border, the Bombers’ choices for a No. Lions prospect Alex Ross … Together, Stegall and Jones brought the Bombers back to prominence, with Jones being the CFL's most outstanding player in 2001, and Stegall getting the honour in 2002. Make no mistake, Nichols is still the clear-cut No. [16] O'Shea helped the team return to the playoffs when he made the switch to Matt Nichols as the starting quarterback. Collaros won the 107th Grey Cup as the starting quarterback with the Blue Bombers when they defeated the Hamilton Tiger-Cats 33-12. Neither a severe concussion nor more than four months of inactivity nor two trades could keep Zach Collaros from Sunday's appointment in Calgary as the Winnipeg Blue Bombers' quarterback … © 2021 CFL ENTERPRISES LP. Under Riley, the Blue Bombers quickly made an impact in the East, winning Grey Cups over their former division rivals B.C. Tom Canada, in particular, reportedly turned down a much higher contract offer from the Montreal Alouettes, to come back to Winnipeg. But he will be looking over his shoulder at Sean McGuire, the all-time passing leader at Western Illinois who was recently at the Bombers free agent camp in Florida and mini-camps with the Minnesota Vikings and Miami Dolphins. Nine of those games were lost by four points or fewer, while 10 were lost by a touchdown or less. After scoring another touchdown on a Greg Kabat catch in the endzone, Winnipeg went into halftime up 12–4. Charles Roberts joined them in 2001, a year which the Bombers went to the Grey Cup, which they eventually lost to the Calgary Stampeders. Those Bomber championship teams were led by some of the greatest names in Bomber history, including quarterback Kenny Ploen, speedy halfback Leo Lewis and brusing fullback Gerry James. Almost immediately, Murphy set the tone for his career with the Bombers by trading popular QB Dieter Brock at midseason (because of Brock's desire to play in the USFL) to Hamilton in exchange for QB Tom Clements. Following a brief return to the NFL, that saw him on the verge of making the New Orleans Saints if not for a serious knee injury at the end of training camp, Stegall remained the team's primary receiver. The game was being held in Hamilton, with the home-town Tigers being their opponents. There was one final hurrah to the the era with a 1965 Grey Cup loss, but there was a gap of 22 years until the Bombers won the Grey Cup again in 1984. Milt Stegall joined the Bombers in 1995 after a three-year career returning kicks and seeing spot duty at receiver with the Cincinnati Bengals. Welp, that is 100 per cent the case when it comes to former Winnipeg Blue Bombers quarterback (and kicker!) Over the years, various plans were proposed to relocate the stadium. Jones, Glenn, Dunigan and Jacobs also all led the team to the final – although Glenn (2007) and Dunigan (1993) were injured for the Grey Cup game. Aided by the "miracle" catch, the Bombers ended up making their first playoff appearance in two years. In the game, the Bombers squandered a 13-point, third quarter lead en route to a heartbreaking 27–24 loss, with Saskatchewan kicker Jack Abendschan converting a short field goal attempt on the last play of the game to send the 'Riders to the 1972 Grey Cup against Hamilton. The Blue Bombers compete in the Canadian Football League (CFL) as a member club of the league's West division. Another unique aspect to the club compared to other North American professional sports teams (but also more common in Europe) is that it is organized as a corporation without share capital, meaning no one person or entity "owns" the team - while there are two other "community-owned" non-profit professional football teams in the CFL and one in the NFL, unlike the Winnipeg Football Club they all have shareholders. In that same year, the Blue Bombers, Calgary Bronks, and Regina Roughriders formed the Western Interprovincial Football Union as the highest level of play in Western Canada. The team holds the record for most Grey Cup appearances of any team (25) and were the first club not located in Ontario or Quebec to win a championship. The Bombers made a surprise trade when they sent all-star running back Charles Roberts to B.C. He’s proven to be a dangerous threat operating the short-yardage set and when he tucks the ball away and runs. There was Matt Nichols atop the group as the unquestioned starter, as he was coming off a season in which he threw for 4,472 yards with 28 touchdowns against just eight interceptions. However, the Bombers came up short in the Western Final against the Saskatchewan Roughriders. With that, Winnipeg had become the first team from Western Canada to win a Grey Cup.[7]. Trading Brock turned out to be a wise decision, with Clements leading the Bombers to crushing victory in the 1984 Grey Cup, coincidentally over the Brock-led Tiger-Cats. Ploen was an excellent defensive back as well as quarterback. With Milt Stegall's early-season knee surgery and drop in production, it was once again speculated that Milt Stegall would retire. Actually beat out Kenny Ploen for the QB position but unfortunately had a short career. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers have gone through their read progression and are ready to make a decision on which quarterback to sign. He came to the Bombers in 1950 after a successful career in the United States. In 1932, the Winnipegs and St. John's merged into one team and adopted the colours bl… This arrangement also lasted only one season, as Winnipeg returned to the East again for the 1997 season after the Ottawa Rough Riders ceased operations. Terms Of Use Privacy Policy, Private Curb Side Concert with Drew Wolitarsky, Break the Silence on Violence Against Women, Presented by Pinnacle" href="https://www.bluebombersace.com">, Presented by IG Wealth Management" href="https://www.bluebombers.com/all-time-roster-presented-ig-wealth-management/">, Presented by Payworks" href="https://www.bluebombers.com/historical-trivia-presented-payworks/">, Presented by Jim Beam" href="https://www.bluebombers.com/private-curb-side-concert-drew-wolitarsky/">, Raffle License | Winnipeg Football Club LGCA 1482-RF-35299. The Returnees: Matt Nichols, Chris Streveler, Bryan Bennett In 1935, before an exhibition game against North Dakota State (NDSU), Winnipeg Tribune sports writer Vince Leah decided to borrow from Grantland Rice, who labelled Joe Louis as "The Brown Bomber". The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are a professional Canadian football team based in Winnipeg, Manitoba and the current Grey Cup champions. Under Jauch, the Bombers became one of the stronger teams in the West, but usually behind Jauch's former team, the powerhouse Edmonton Eskimos coached by Hugh Campbell. The Bombers and Ticats met again in the 1962 Grey Cup, with the game being postponed with 9:29 left in the fourth quarter due to zero visibility in the famous "Fog Bowl". The others: Kevin Glenn (35-37-1), Buck Pierce (14-18), Drew Willy (11-18), Michael Bishop (6-8), Steven Jyles (2-8), Joey Elliott (2-7) Max Hall (1-8), Justin Goltz (1-4), Ryan Dinwiddie (1-2), Alex Brink (1-2), Stefan LeFors (1-3), Chris Streveler (1-3) Tee Martin (0-3), Robert Marve (0-2), Brian Brohm (0-2), Mike Quinn (0-2), Dominique Davis (0-1). Winnipeg was defeated by the Saskatchewan Roughriders 23–19 in the Rogers Centre in Toronto. Milt Stegall became an all-star in 1997, his first full year with the team, and scored what seemed like at least one long touchdown in every game. They are listed in order of most starts with any tiebreaker being the date of each player's first start at quarterback for the Blue Bombers. [21] In June 2012, it was announced that the stadium would not open until the 2013 season. During the second half of the 1960s, the Bombers' domination gave way to lean years, with four seasons of double digits in the loss column. Jeff Reinebold was hired to replace Murphy as the team coach, and despite a huge amount of hype, and championship promises going into the 1997 season, he proved to be one of the least successful head coaches in team history. [10] On February 18, 2009, Milt Stegall did retire from the CFL which formally ended the Milt Stegall era. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the Canadian Football League ended the 1990 season with a record of 12 wins and 6 losses for 24 points, finishing first in the CFL's East Division. Buck James Pierce is the offensive coordinator of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and a retired professional quarterback who played nine seasons for the BC Lions and Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the Canadian Football League. Streveler signed with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the Canadian Football League on May 4, 2018, after going undrafted in the 2018 NFL Draft. Then on September 8, 2008, they traded all-star DE Tom Canada to Hamilton for Zeke Moreno. [22], The Blue Bombers played their first home game at IG Field (then known as Investor's Group Field) on June 27, 2013, losing 38–33 to the Montreal Alouettes.[23]. First Football team in Winnipeg was formed in 1879, and former B.C he came to the West following! Touchdown on a Bob Fritz pass to Bud Marquardt to get the lead. Or Chris Streveler makes his first career NFL start this weekend Streveler and Ross for backup behind Nichols is the. The 2010 CFL blue bomber quarterbacks, Winnipeg won only twice, in 1939 over the winter as a arm... 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